~~* Benny's MOm *~~ (RE: birth and personality)

[hedra]

Benny's Mom - I hear you about the birth reflecting something about the child, though exactly what is (IMHO) sometimes their response to it rather than the experience on the external side. It isn't just as simple as 'gentle birth = gentle soul' and 'traumatic birth = angry baby' ... it could be that meeting challenges is important to them, or that overcoming dramatic-risky situations is a life path, or that making things easy for others is a life goal, or that they have high anxiety or strong stress responses and needed an easy gentle start, or, well, anything - it only becomes clear in retrospect, and is probably open to a great deal of interpretation. Even so, I still think that what you said is true. The birth they get is either the birth they need or says something about the kinds of things they are here to do or to overcome.

My two boys are examples of the same thing - Gabe's labor was extended, more than three days long. He stayed very strong throughout, and just stuck with the process. The very first personality trait we saw in him, just a few days after he was born, was determination. He is, and always has been, DETERMINED. We even used his birth experience as part of how we chose his name - we were down to Nicholas or Gabriel, and when he was born, in addition to his strength throughout, his voice was mellow and sweet - not a Nicholas, and Gabriel means "Strength of God" (in one translation). He was strong, so that was his name. And he's still patient and has very long focus when he is determined to do something.

And Brendan always has had an opinion. Before he was born, it was clear that he didn't like the doppler OR the fetoscope - he'd kick it every time, to the point where the MW would put it on me, find his heartbeat for a second, then SWOOSHY-SWOOSHY, he'd spin inside me and kick the exact spot where it was pressing. Then she'd move it to try again, and he'd turn and kick it again. We eventually stopped doing more than one try (a few seconds of heartbeat sound), because he didn't seem to like it, and he was also clearly ACTIVE. LOL! He also would turn his back on the ultrasound machine when they tried to look at him - they'd look, he'd turn and look right into the image, then flip over and put his back to the image. Made one U/S tech a bit twitchy.

The other thing that we discovered is, well, Brendan is a trickster. Disasters loom, but then are withdrawn or turn out to be nothing. He turned breech a week before his birth. Turned back (with the help of a HypnoBirthing script). While determining that he'd turned back, they discovered that I had polyhydramnios, which makes water breaking something of a high risk issue (cord prolapse risk), but then my water broke 'high' so there was no way the cord could get drawn down with the fluid (it was leaking along the side of the amnion). Still got transferred to the hospital, though (sigh). Then the OB thought he would be too big (ultrasound measured 10 lbs 10 oz - I never believed that, but the OB sure did!), and he was born easily at 9 lbs 6. It was frustrating to deal with the hyper-medical-oriented staff, but then magically, midway through the labor, the nurses all switched teams and were 100% on my side, and helped me make my goal.

Then when he was 4 weeks old, a tumor showed up suddenly on his abdomen. They couldn't ID it with ultrasound, so he had surgery at 5 weeks, but it turned out to be an internal strawberry birthmark (of unusual venous makeup), and no big deal. And on and on - dramatic 'big bad thing' turns out to be nothing. Makes mommy jup trhough hoops, only to find that there was no reason to jump in the first place... And he just grins at us through the whole experience, like he's in on the joke but nobody else is.

My sister also had repeated dreams of him, in which his eyes were always dancing with mischief or some kind of gentle humor in the 'laughing at the world' kind of way. All my 'sense' of him said the same, that gentle tweaking, not-unkind teasing, a little bit of a wink or a sly look like he knows something magical but he can't tell... very much who he is, now, too.

Again, we chose his name after he was born. And there was no doubt about what name was right. Brendan Michael means "Little Raven of God" - the trickster, but in the Nordic tradition, one who knows the Secrets, who sits on the shoulder of God - and who finds us slightly amusing, in a tender and gentle sort of way.

Sounds like Brendan and your son could be best buds!

[Benny's Mom]

Oh, Hedra, what beautiful stories. Benny and Brendan sound like they were mean't to know each other. Maybe the will...You never can tell where life will lead them.

Benny is short for Benrashi, a unique and one of a kind name, we believe. His father had a dream that this is what he wanted his name to be and when my husband woke up and told me, how could I argue? It's what Benny wants...

His dramatic entrance into the world was followed by a misdiagnosis that truly frightened us. The whole story was an aside so I didn't share iit in the last thread, but, here goes...

He was born weighing only 4 pounds 14 ounces but was a mature baby. No one knows why but that was the case. I was healthy in every way during the pregnancy and he kicked and moved throughout. The first month of his life, we were concerned about every bowl movement and every ounce he ate (he would not breast feed right away). He ate like a contender and went from the weight he dropped to (4 pounds 9 ounces) at discharge to 12 pounds at 4 months. He wants to make little league!

I thought I could relax. No more worry about germs and losing weight, no more explaining to do about his small size...I could just be another mommy at the mother's group. I could handle this "being a mother" thing.

Well, at 4 months, his doctor heard a murmer for the 1st time...An "atypical"one at that. She hadn't heard it before so it wasn't there. Since then, his cardiologist thinks it was a weakness that he was born with and as he grew it "appeared".

Well, I jumped! What??? What do you mean??? How quickly can I get an echo to find out everything is fine and just a little hole that will close?? You see, I think I know my son. He isn't supposed to have health problems. Benny is a strong, powerful soul with an healthy body. I was certain that his murmer would not need intervention and would signify nothing of consequence in the course of his life. But, as a mother who feels a bit "out of control" when faced with the medical establishment, I doubted, feared and fussed, but got an appointment with a pediatric cardiologist the next day. I couldn't wait. I had to know everything was o.k.

Well, he had his echo, and he had his evaluation by the doctor, and she looked at his body and demeanor for all of two minutes before pronouncing him to have "Noonan's Syndrome" but, not to worry, Mom, "these" kind of people can work and function...

To that, I started to cry, and she then turned to look at my husband and kept talking. Furthermore, she told us that he has an atypical murmer, called supravalular pulmonary stenosis and since it appeared from nowhere it most likely will worsen quickly and she will do another echo in three months and sedate him for it and that these murmers require open heart surgery and on and on...

I could do nothing but cry for 3 hours. But, I didn't have the luxury to cry. I had to snap out of it. I have a happy, joyful, gentle boy, but this doctor put a "whammy" on us. I just couldn't believe it. First, everything in my heart told me from the moment he was conceived that he was a happy and healthy child who was going to be very, very bright. My ego wasn't at stake. I don't need to have a "perfect" child. It just didn't ring true.

I had him evaluated four days later by a geneticist who quickly told us that he most certainly does not have a syndrome of any kind but it was the longest four days i've ever lived through and such a trial for me and his whole family.

The whole time, he remained unaffected and happy. In fact, I was the one who changed. I wrote a letter of complaint to the doctor's chief of staff, fired the doctor and hired her supervisor. Since then, it has also been made clear to me that he has the best kind of murmer you can have...In fact, if you were to choose one, his is the one you should choose. It likely will never worsen and will not inhibit his growth or his activity level in any way. She turned out to be wrong in everything except for the dianosis of a heart murmur. She most certainly underestimated me. I am not a mother who will roll over and let her call the shots.

We made it through that time and now, I think it is clear to me that I have to trust myself and at the same time I can't take it for granted that I have anything "figured out". What a dichotomy to live with. I'm also trying to trust my son and his "choices" in life. I do believe, if you haven't guessed, that he did make his choices before he arrived. I think he picked his birth to have a dramatic first page to his memoir.

I'm certain that he will be the gentle, loving, kind and very smart boy I dreamed he would be. However, in the process of raising him, i'm sure he will help me to be more of all these things too and while I learn he will be soulfully cheering me on saying "you can do it, Mom".

And, I agree, much of what their birth teaches you about them, you see as you go along. That's part of the fun... It is a bit of a trickster...Nothing is clear until it hits you. They will keep us on our toes.

By the way, Benrashi is a Hebrew name. Ben means son of, and the root of rashi is rosh, which means head, dreams or thoughts. Son of my dreams...:)

[hedra]

GREAT story! Makes me wonder indeed...

Brendan is also the son of my dreams. Only I dreamed of him when I was seven years old. Along with his two brothers (youngest yet to arrive). I also dreamed his name before he was conceived, but when he was born, that name no-longer applied. I tried my best to give him the name I THOUGHT I knew he'd told me... and he refused, and everyone agreed that it wasn't the right name. His older brother also agrees - it wasn't HIS name. Now, Gabe has told me that the name I dreamed belongs to his younger brother, who is now waiting to be born (well, waiting to be concieved, really!). Could be - I will just have to wing it and see.

When I was pregnant with Gabe, my best friend did the dreaming - he visited her in dreams to tell her that he was there (she called me the day I found out I was pregnant), and also to tell me when he needed me to change my diet (he asked me to eat more protien, and I didn't eat enough more protien, and three weeks later, my BP went up and the midwives analyzed my diet and said - you guessed it, I wasn't eating nearly enough protien! Once I did, my BP went down). There were a bunch of other things that happened, too. But, like you, I knew something about what was 'going' to happen, so I trusted it. Didn't expect to need interventions, and had them, and learned, like you, that just because things will turn out all right, doesn't mean that result takes me on the path I expect.

You might well enjoy Elizabeth Hallett's website (http://www.light-hearts.com), and her two books, Soul Trek and Stories of the Unborn Soul (which I reviewed for SN (http://www.storknet.com/bookshelf/unbornsoul.htm)). It will be right in line with your experience. And, I suspect, vastly interesting to find out how very many people have had similar experiences!

Take care, and email me if you want - I can even tell you which story in the Stories of the Unborn Soul is mine... ;)

[Benny's Mom]

Hedra, i'll look for the books and thanks for sharing. I marvel at the children of today. If my parents had these thoughts and experiences with me they never expressed it. I think it has something to do with the children (and parents) bof today's world.

[Benny's Mom]

Hedra, i'll look for the books and thanks for sharing. I marvel at the children of today. If my parents had these thoughts and experiences with me they never expressed it. I think it has something to do with the children (and parents) bof today's world.

[hedra]

Beautifully written, Johanna.

I wonder sometimes, how many more people would know these same things if they stopped to listen to what their children say, and just stand in awe of what their children show them. But I also wonder if those of us who learn to hear these things, who recognize our 'knowing' - if we hear because we somehow needed to hear, learn, remember, understand, as part of our own healing and growth, or to prepare us to parent these specific children.

Certainly for me, knowing I would have these sons saved my life. I simply became certain that I would grow up, WOULD be whole, WOULD be capable of raising good children... and I knew it simply because I met them, and they were such gems that theor mother had to be worthwhile - and that was me. That *knowing* prevented me from taking my own life - I knew that even if I tried, I would fail, because those boys *would not be denied*. They would exist. And therefore it was not worth even trying to kill myself. I would go on, and it was imperative that I heal because my sons would need a whole and healthy mother. More, I knew that not only was it important to heal, it was inevitable - I could fight it, avoid the pain, avoid the process, but it would overtake me anyway. In some strange way, it had already happened, as if time was immaterial.

I have told a lot of women my stories. Most of them either seem puzzled or wistful, a few are definitely spooked, a few clearly think I'm nuts, and the rare few, one in ten or fewer... those women look at me like a long lost friend, someone who knows the same things they know, even if the theology differs. I've connected to women of all backgrounds and faiths through this common experience. And to a few men, as well.

Very cool stuff. Don't worry about jumping in. I certainly don't mind!

[Benny's Mom]

Oh My, i'm truly crying now. Benny is waking up so I can't stay on but I will come back to this. What lovely ladies you are, and yes, beautiful mothers who truly deserve their special, special children!

[hedra]

And I'm glad I'm working from home today, because I hate it when people walk into my cube to find me wiping tears off my face!

Speaking of which, back to work for me...

[hedra]

You'd probably find that website and the books (linked earlier) valuable, too, then. (read the review, it will give you a 'feel')

Take care, and Soooooo nice to meet other people on what DH calls my 'planet' - or rather, my planet, continent, city, neighborhood, heck, right across the street! LOL!

[Benny's Mom]

I'm back. Rich and I just put Benny to sleep and can focus again. Hedra, it sounds like you met your boys at a very young age. I didn't feel Benny until a few years before he was born, and then, at first, I felt only a vague sense that "it was time" and that I needed to get my husband "ready" for that fact. It took three years for him to agree that it was "time"...

I guess Benny knew how long it would take (daddy's a slowpoke) so he put the urgency in me early on...But Benny had been with us a long time. In fact, when I was twenty five years old (i'm now 34) a very sensitive claravoyant met me at an area book store and just volunteered that I was either pregnant or that my unborn child was with me. She saw a brilliant "energy ring" around me that wasn't my own.

He's very patient my Benny. I believe, he was waiting for us, as I know we weren't ready to be parents in our twenties. I felt, the year before he was conceived, that I was truly ready and was going to "make the space for him" in my life. I began to work part-time as my work is very emotionally intense and I began a journal where I explored my connection to G-d and my ambivalence about motherhood.

You see, I had very little mothering. Maybe that's why I didn't meet Benny until I was ready to. All through my twenties I worked with children as a therapist exploring my own feelings and helping others, the classic wounded healer. My mother has severe and chronic mental illness. I felt it was really important to understand my feelings and other's feelings. If I didn't I could lose control like my mother or so I thought.

Now, I believe that I chose my mother so that I would learn at a very young age not to fear emotions and worry about losing control of them, but to trust in life and what it gives to me as I have everything I need even though it isn't necessarily what I want. I can't say I have it mastered AT all. Think of it...without a mother, you have to accept what comes to you in the form of any nurturance like a greedy spounge and as you grow, you have to figure out what was healthy and what you can't take in anymore just because you're afraid you'll never get enough love or attention or concern from others.

This is hard for me to write in the cavern of the internet where I even now a little voice inside me whispers, take this thread to a personal e-mail, people will feel sorry for you or think, "no wonder why she has such wacky thoughts"...

I've also spent so much time, wasted so much time, worrying about what people think, trying to "fit in", and be what I supposed normal would be like. Sometimes, I come "out of the closet" and say my thoughts outloud. Most of the time, I don't and then, feel very frustrated that people don't see me for who I am and that it doesn't seem safe for me to be me. But I was also conditioned at an early age not to reveal to much of myself and my family life as I didn't know what people would think. Would they think less of me that my mother was who she was.

I have worked very hard on this personally and know how to create something else for both me and my child. I do have true soul friends that I connect to. Now, in a bizarre way, I feel that this is one of the reasons why i've had the life that i've had although I also think i'd give it back and take a well and nurturing mother any day.

I know that he is special and I will acknowledge what he sees and try to help him find places where he can expand to his "true size" and he can be seen by others. But, I also want him to be of the world, and discriminate well in that he cannot be revealing to everyone and expect to be heard or respected, while, at the same time, not wanting him to fear being seen or be ashamed of being seen if he does reveal himself and isn't received well. I must find a balance with him.

I know that I will learn as I teach him and get smarter showing him what he most likely already knows. Hey, how else am I supposed to learn?

To you, Mom2Jazzygirl, I almost don't know what to write. I have never experienced what you had to endure! But, I can feel something in what you shared and can tell that your 1st daughter, must have known how much you would need her. If you were to endure such a terrible experience, she would be living proof of the enduring human spirit and that great beauty can come from great horror. She must be very beautiful.

Ever since I began to feel Benny, which was soon after he was conceived, (my mind was too cluttered before to hear him, I think), he began to show me his "true colors". I actually see his colors...which has become a kind of shorthand for our communication. He is a vibrant Purple and Green and he glows around his head as if he has a halo. If i'm not with him, I close my eyes and I can see him. If I ask him a question in my mind about how I can help him, I know i've hit upon the answer when I see his colors. When i'm truly in the moment basking in his smile and laughter or holding him close I can close my eyes and "know" things are true and right.

I know this is a long response and a little all over the place...(it's been a long day) but in my day to day life there is always so much that goes unsaid. And about my child, I would never tire from sharing about him.

It has been really lovely. Anyone else who peeks in and reads this...if you think i'm a kook, well, I don't know what to say. I agree with Hedra that if you have these experiences, it's because you need to, either to help you parent your child or, when your own soul reaches for them, either for a healing from a personal pain or a life challenge that threatens your wellbeing. Just my opinion but one that bears true in my life.

I'm also so grateful that my husband trusts my intuition. Many times, it has come in handy for him, and I always know when the pizza delivery man is coming, a real plus in a marriage!

I'm going to sign off but I invite anyone who reads this and wants to share to feel welcome. It feels really nice to learn of other's experiences.

[Benny's Mom]

Johanna, (can I call you that?), you're welcome to e-mail me. It does seem exposing to continue this way. Some innocent passerby is going to be shocked!

I'll add to my earlier thoughts to wrap them up...When I was in my twenties I first began to experience my intuition in the form of dreams and knowing in the moment. (I was a late bloomer) I used this information to help people in my work without them knowing how I received it. I always seemed to have the right words or the right message...because I was getting it from another source...

Being young, and somewhat immature (i'm being kind to myself, very immature) I began to think very highly of myself, was facinated with it and could easily think I was better than when I felt low or sad in any way...

So, you all, please don't think i'm thinking that now. A dear friend's mother, who is a healer by trade, told me, she views dejavu as just a way of knowing you are on the right path in life, doing what you should. I like that and my humility returned a long time ago.

All the best and write if you would like to about yourself or your children. As Hedra said it is so nice to find someone else who lives on my planet. I can tell you are a true, heartfelt person.

[January]

"some innocent passerby will be shocked" I had to laugh because I know you are talking about me! But I am not shocked like you think, shocked to see someone else that has the gift.


When I was a child I was standing by my father's bed when he got the call his mother had died. I knew already before he told me. I have always known when things were going to happen to my loved ones. At age 17 I woke up screaming for my mom to call her parents. I was frantic. She didn't call but did look at the time. They were struck by lightning 3 minutes after I woke up. They lived but I knew something was going to happen to them. I feel people pass, and I even know what side of the family it was but why? no one knows. I guess my mom and my grandmother are the same, it seems to run in the women of our family. Women decended from a Native American Medicine Woman.

With my first son, I knew he was a boy because in a dream I saw my belly light up and the baby came out and I could see every detail. It was a boy. I used to have sensations of pinpricks of light in my vision. I knew him before he was born. Were the lights the many souls "trying out for the part" of my child?

With my second son, he was conceived near to the time of his great grandfather's death. At the time of his death I was in Toledo, Spain. I walked into a cathedral, lit a candle and prayed my grandfather would pass (from cancer) on angel's wings. I walked around the side of the cathedral and looked up. In that moment I felt my grandfather's spirit. I was looking at the most beautiful marble in light blues, yellows and pinks. Baby faces were carved from the floor to the celing. In the celing was a tiny window in the shape of a cirlce. In that moment the tour guide said that the people believe the souls pass through that window on their way to heaven. I actually sat down crying, looked at my watch because I knew he had passed. When I got home, he passed in that moment when I lit the candle and I know he was with me passing through the window in Toledo.

After I knew I was preg with my second son I dreamed that my grandfather had met this child on his way into this world. I dreamed he whispered all he knew to my child, and I named him for my grandfather in a way. While preg. I saw a Flash of white light and I believe that was his soul entering.

With this child, I have never spoken this. A dear child (age 14) died right before my baby's conception. I was still crying over his death and not 'planning' this baby. I dreamed I saw the boy and he waved to me, a white light floated to me. When I woke up I knew I would be having a baby. I believe this child will be a boy. I know him, he has an old soul. He is beautiful.

What you ladies said touched me! Thank you.

[Benny's Mom]

January, I wish you a healthy child and blessed and easy labor. Thank YOU for sharing.

[Benny's Mom]

January...Just an aside. Can I ask you a question? Benny was born inside the sack of waters. It never broke on it's own and because I didn't birth in the hospital no one intervened to break it. The caul was over his face. I was told that this means something signifigant in Native American cultures. I wonder if you would happen to know anything about the beliefs surrounding this happenstance. I'd imagine anyway that it's rather rare but I don't know really.

If you have any information to share I would be curious. Thanks.

[DoulaAmanda]

Reading your stories means so much to me. Everyone thinks I'm crazy if I tell them I "knew" my daughter before she was born, or that she named herself. I'm glad to find a few others with similar experiences.

I was not supposed to be able to conceive, my doctor told me I did not ovulate (I only had periods every 6-12 mos). We were much more spiritual than we are now, sad to say... trying to get back there to that wonderful place. We waited til we were married to make love, because we knew that was what God wanted / expected of us. Somehow I knew if we obeyed, we would be very blessed. I had severe depression just before we got married, to the point of wanting to kill myself. I could not think of a reason to live, even though I was madly in love. It was a very hard time for me.

Within two weeks after we got married, I knew I was pregnant. I wasn't sick or peeing a lot, or any other pg symptom.... I just woke up one day and knew I was a mother. I tested once, about three weeks after we got married... but it was negative. I knew I was pregnant, so didn't bother testing again for another month because my dr wouldn't see me unless I had a + test result. We were very excited to be expecting, though we were very young (not quite 19, and dh was only 17). We had already decided on a name-- Katheryn. I was sure I was having a girl, from the moment I knew I was pregnant. I had known since I was a very young child that if I ever had a daughter, her name had to be Katheryn.

At just under two months along, I had a wonderful dream. I saw the most beautiful little girl I had ever seen... she must've been around three, with long curly brown hair and gorgeous blue eyes, wearing a light blue old fashioned looking dress. She was sitting on the floor playing with a doll, and kept looking up and grinning at me. Then I heard the most soothing male voice I have ever heard, and he said to me "The child you are carrying is a gift to you. You are in a very scary place, but she will help you. I ask one thing of you in return-- just as I am giving her to you, you will give her back to me when the time is right. Her name is Rebekah, love her as I do." Then the little girl waved to me, and faded away.

I realized later that I had dreamed of the same little girl for about a week, but had not heard anyone speak in the other dreams... they were all just of her playing with her doll. I did not remember any of the dreams at the time they happened, but after waking up this night saw a sort of flashback of the previous nights' dreams.

I woke up in the happiest mood I have ever been in, and instantly knew her name had to be Rebekah Elizabeth. I told my dh that was to be her name and he agreed (because I was so sure), though he said he liked Katheryn much better. I decided to look up the meaning of the name-- Rebekah means "tied / bound to God" and Elizabeth means "consecrated / given to God". An extra special meaning to me, because of the dream.

She was born 7 months later after a horrible pregnancy and horrible delivery. She is now a very spunky, active two year old... and looks exactly like the darling little girl of my dreams. I hope to find her dress and doll someday. :) She is definitely a Rebekah, not a Katheryn... I am so glad I did not choose the name I liked better for selfish reasons.

I had a m/c at only 5-6 wks last April, and I am positive his name was Nicholas. I knew I was pregnant the day he was conceived, but also knew I would never meet him (on earth anyway). I started bleeding two days after I felt his presence leave me.

I know there is still a Katheryn/Katie somewhere waiting for me, hopefully I'll get to take her home in a couple of years!

[January]

Benny's Mom: I do not know but maybe I can point you in the right direction I have a link that I will find for you!

DoulaAmanda: That is a wonderful story.

On a similar note, I know I will only have male children. I had something happen to me that was very traumatic when I was growing up. I always knew I would have male children, it is my job to raise them to be good men and not like the perpetual male children we see many times in today's society. Interesting you are waiting for your daughter as I am waiting for my son!

Again, a great thread!

[hedra]

Boy, oh, BOY! There are a number of us floating around, aren't there? But I've found that we're everywhere, we just need someone to start talking so we don't feel like we're alone.

And I can pretty much relate to all of it in one way or another. I also had a not-quite-normal childhood, though I had the advantage that my mom was the one who broke the cycle of horrific parenting. She made a lot of mistakes herself, but the change began with her. I fell through the cracks, though - she didn't manage to protect me, because she was protecting me from the wrong person. Sigh. Not her fault. (I highly recommend "An Adult Child's Guide to What's Normal" for those of us with less-than-normal childhoods... very helpful!)

I also met the kids I miscarried. One of them is mine (who either has returned as Brendan or will be my next son), the other is one who 'held the space' - she was the soul that connected to the body of the second child I miscarried, but she left because she was not supposed to be mine. She is linked, instead, to my older son - but she doesn't want to be his sister. He knew of her birth, and gave me some clues to how to recognize her, later. He has also told me that he will not meet her until he is grown up. I dreamed of her, too. And I miss her deeply, but if she and my son marry, I know she'll be a daughter to me.

Interestingly, I also remember choosing my own mother. And I also know that there were more kids 'in line' for her than the number she actually had. The intent is there, but it is a two-way street. You (as the mom) can decline the invitation, or the time and situation can pass and the child may need to find someone else. My mother didn't give birth to all her 'kids' - she had many people become 'semi-adopted' children - two foster kids, and probably five other people who send her mother's day cards and show up for Thanksgiving, and whose children she counts among her grandchildren! Those may well be the souls who were in line but didn't make it into the first 7 kids (yep, SEVEN - I told you it was a long line!).

Anyway, I always (since childhood) have seen the process of souls choosing parents as a flexible arrangement. In my recollections, there was some jockeying for position, some discussion of who goes first, some (apparently) random rearranging, some souls who stand in line for something that doesn't happen, some people who want kids who have no souls in line at all, some doors that have to be blown open (such as by adoption) before the 'standard' method opens up... the variations are multiple, and, from what I remember remembering, not locked in stone or preordained. Intent is strong, and often strong enough to make it nearly the same thing. But there is still the prospective parent's God-given free will, the right to decline to offer, or postpone it, and the soul-child's right to pester the heck out of the reluctant parents, too. They can be very insistant, those little souls.

Y'all should definitely check out Elisabeth Hallett's books and website. Definitely.

[DoulaAmanda]

hedra, what a truly interesting story... I hope you do meet her someday, and it would be lovely if she married your son. :)

I had something to add to my story. I said that I tested but it was negative, after I woke up and "knew" I was pregnant. The day I woke up and knew I was pg was later determined by ultrasound (not all that reliable, I know, but still) to be the day of conception. That would mean I got pregnant a night or two before that (we were newlyweds, not sure exactly which time I got pg :o ). So amazing that these little ones are such a part of us, even before conception.

And like Johanna's children, she is very much still the way she was in utero. I told people when I was pg that she was feisty, spirited, etc... they all said babies don't have personalities before they are born. Why not? How do they develop personalities after they are born, if they are not born with them? I am glad my dh believed me... we "played" with her every single night, and she knew his voice the day she was born. She would turn his direction every time he spoke, and would curl up next to him as he did to her while inside me. I'm sure they will always be very close because their bond started so early.

[kiwichick]

Hi all,

I am an unsuspecting passer-by here! What an interesting thread. It has really got me thinking, because I feel that I knew both my kids before they were born, I knew their sexes before they were conceived.........I have always thought about them in specific colours if that makes sense.......Ashlens colour is red and Hannah is my green girl.......

When I miscarried before I became pregnant with Hannah, I have always been comforted that it was Hannah all along, she just knew I wasn't ready (mentally) for her yet, and didn't want her ENOUGH!

I never talk about this stuff with anyone, it feels a) like I might jinx something to talk about it and b) Dh and everyone else would think I was insane!!

I often think that Ashlen is a very young soul, he is so innocent and open. His name just sprang out at us when we were looking through lists of names. I changed the spelling though (Ashlin to Ashlen because the i wasn't right)

Hannah has been waiting for a while, I remember thinking at high school that I would have a daughter called Hannah.............

And now I am sure that I have another child waiting for me.....but I don't have a good handle on what sex this one willl be........this troubles me in case it means there are 2 more to come!! I think more probably it is just that the time isn't right yet.

Wow, you guys are very interesting. I am not religious at all, so I find some of this stuff hard to accept in my scientific mind ;) but I can't deny my own feelings, things that I just KNOW for certain, the feelings I have had (e.g. of my (deceased) grandmother being with me when I brought Hannah home), attatchments I have had to certain places. I knew I would marry Dh 6 months before I even convinced him to go out with me.....the knowledge just hit me one day, amazing (he doesn't belive me I don't think)

I've never discussed this stuff with anyone, what a fascintating thread - thank you guys for keeping it on the board.

:)

[hedra]

:D I know all about the conflict between intellect and 'knowing' - it is a fight I have with myself all the time.

[kiwichick]

:D